Archive for the ‘usa’ Category

"why doesn’t god help the needy?" is a flawed argument (atheiorant)   Leave a comment

i find the whole “why doesn’t god help the hungry” argument to be a flawed argument on the part of the atheist, especially when dealing with Jesus fans because Jesus taught that you are to help those in need, right?

Jesus taught that his *followers* should help people in need, Jesus never taught that he would fix things by coming down and/or fix things from remote – according to the story, this Jesus Christ god is not *ever* going to come down and help the needy because it is up to followers of Christ to get in there and do that – it is, after all, what the christian needs to do to get into heaven..

Timmy Tebow and his John 3:16 verse may seem to imply that you just need to believe, but the other three gospels say that you have to actually *do* something. ie. the other three gospels say that you get into heaven by giving your money to those who need it

think of how that Good Samaritan helped the guy he saw laying on the side of the road, it was a situation of opportunity, the Samaritan saw the guy in need, so he helped him out, no-one else did, but given the good nature of the helpful Samaritan, I would assume that he thought that he was the first person to come along and see the guy laying at the side of the road.

Now we’ve all known since the 80s, thanks to TV, that people are starving all across the world, so given that knowledge of people in need is so widespread – why haven’t the christians done what their Jesus told them to do? do they not want to get into heaven?

this is why that argument is flawed, it was never up to god to make things good, it was up to the believers in god to spread their wealth around until everyone stopped being in need, so there’s your proof that the Jesus from the bible doesn’t exist, there’s your proof that god is dead and that we’ve killed it because no-one is following Jesus, they are merely saying that they are “christians” because if richest 1% of the two billion or so christians actually gave a mere 10% of their earnings to the needy – i can’t see how needy people could still exist in such vast numbers if christians were actually following their Messiah.

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Posted 14 January, 2012 by manabrau in Christianity, jesus, Religion Sux Arse, usa

who the fuck is Tom Tebow? (religiorant)   Leave a comment

DENVER (CBS Denver) — Denver Broncos quarterback Tim Tebow is not the only one who thinks God helps him on the football field.

According to a national telephone survey conducted by Poll Position, 43 percent of people believe that “divine intervention” is responsible for his success compared to 42 percent of people surveyed who think that God has nothing to do with Tebow winning.
— from Poll Finds 43 Percent Of People Believe God Helps Tebow Win

i am certain that 43% is not reflective of the true extent of this problem in the USA as i suspect that people would not say “yes, god helps Tebow” if they were fans of other football teams or didn’t like football at all, so i expect that this *facepalm* attitude to faith to be much more prevalent – perhaps even as many as 99% of US christians have their religion so wrong that according to their rule book, there is no way they are going to this heaven of theirs..

christians don’t carry on like this in Australia anywhere near as much as the USA – idiot christians getting their religion wrong seem to be few and far between over here and the religious majority usually deal with them anyway – in my experience, a non-believer rarely needs to be the one to tell fundamentalist christian idiots to “pull their head in” over here

the problem i have with prayer is that people are praying for trivial things that they want or get… seriously? .. a football game? finding your keys? not missing the bus? .. come on people, such trivialities? … i always thought that prayer was supposed to be reserved for being thankful for very personal stuff like you and your family’s health and/or for the food in front of you – maybe it’s me that is the idiot?

maybe Tebow is praying that he is grateful his leg didn’t fall off? i could accept that, but regardless, he does this prayer bullcrap in front of thousands of people, this is blatantly showing off that you are a believer to win the favour of the masses – to add insult to injury, this Jesus guy even taught that you should *not* do exactly what this Tebow clown is doing in Mathew 6:5, the specific purpose of which was to teach that you should not show off that you are a believer as it makes others like/love/respect/trust you for doing some trivial thing

Response to "What’s wrong with American Christianity" ….   Leave a comment

in reply to WHAT’S WRONG WITH AMERICAN CHRISTIANITY?

indeed – this is a very serious problem as it would seem that vast majority of US christians are defying the teachings of their own Messiah – and defying them with pride

merely declaring yourself christian, doesn’t make a person a christian, at all … but a lot of christians seem to think they are christian simply because they believe in Jesus, and by proxy, believing in Jesus makes them think they are a good person … now they probably are good people in general, but being a christian, means that you are supposed to do good things to be a good person – so just saying that you are christian is much like saying that you are smart because you like Einstein

so believing in Jesus requires that you actually take actions to help your fellow humans – and not merely give the impression that you are a good person because you believe in some dude called Jesus

in fact, declaring that you are christian is *bragging* that you are christian … look at Matthew 6:1 … it says the christian should not do good deeds such that other people will see them do those good deeds or something like that, ie. So if you shouldn’t be bragging that you are good person even when you actually *are* doing good deeds, the logical extension of that is that you most certainly should *not* declare that you are a good person when you are *not* doing good deeds at all

the author of Matthew 6 seemed to be concerned that people were doing good things and then bragging about it – however, nearly every American christian I have seen, has *skipped* the whole doing good things and gone straight to bragging that they are good people – it is one thing to brag about being a good person when you are a good person, but to brag that you are a good person, when you are not and/or indifferent to other people’s needs .. well … that’s a lie

christians need to be aware that three of the gospels state that you need to give to the needy to get into heaven … I find no other bible verse that declares what you need to actually do to get into heaven, and just saying you believe, is not doing anything whatsoever – so if your basis for getting into heaven is John 3:16, then you do not understand your bible – because if you are not giving to the needy then you do *not* believe in Jesus and what he taught, you are in fact lying that you are christian because the way i see it is that any one declaring they are christian is declaring “hey! If you need money, come to me and I will give it to you, no questions asked” – but is anyone actually declaring that if someone walks up to them and asks for them for money that they will actually give that money away simply by stating that they are christian?

I do not regard myself as being christian simply because I will not give away money to every stranger that wanders up to me and asks for it – I am under no obligation to help those people in need (even though i still do at times) – however, people claiming to be christian *ARE* obligated to help the needy, ALL the time – “love thy neighbour” is a commandment, it is not an optional thing that you do for your family and/or friends and/or whenever you feel like – if you see someone in need, then if you are christian, you should be helping them – remember the good Samaritan? in fact, there are so many needy people in the world that christians should not even have *time* to declare they are christian let alone brag about it at length as they should be elsewhere doing as their Messiah commanded

it disgusts me that US christians claim that the USA is a christian nation, because if the USA was truly a christian society, any homeless person should be able stand on the streets of a big city like New York and hold up a sign that says “I am homeless and need money”, in a true christian country that person should be a millionaire by lunch time of the first day of begging in the street, but is that what happens?

no, this is not what happens in the richest country in the world – unless, of course, ALL 250 million people claiming to be christians in the USA are living in poverty then they have a reason to not help the needy because they are needy themselves – on the other hand, it would seem to me that at least 90% of christians in the USA are not living in poverty – so why haven’t those hundred million or so christians at least gotten rid of poverty in their own country?

here is your proof that there is no such thing as Jesus, because given this clear evidence that people are not willing to actually help those in need and actually follow what their Jesus taught, then it is fair to say that almost every christian claiming to be a christian in the USA, is in fact worshipping a *false* Jesus – a false Jesus that does not care about whether you give to the needy or not; so there’s your proof that the Jesus from the bible does not exist, the fact that even one person in this world lives in poverty is all the proof that I need to declare that the Jesus from the bible does not exist, and that all the Jesus references today that people make, are towards the false Jesus that they merely *want* to believe in

anyone worshipping a false Jesus and yet claims to follow the Jesus from the bible is committing idolatry because they are worshipping a Jesus that *they* made up, because the only Jesus Christ that would let a person get away with their blatant pretending to be christian, is the Jesus Christ that is their very own ego .. and christians have the gall to imply that atheists worship themselves?!?!. .. HA!! … ahem … no … it’s the other way around

I also find it laughable when some christian is shown just how grossly they are not following the commandments of Jesus and they turn around and try to shift the focus of the conversation elsewhere and point at other groups and say “Oh you don’t pick on those people for not being christian!!” — really — is that their excuse? Jews don’t follow Jesus, Atheists don’t follow Jesus, Muslims don’t follow Jesus (he was a prophet of theirs, but not a significant one compared to Muhammad), etc etc etc .. only christians follow Jesus so only christians are obligated to follow the commandments of Jesus Christ – any attempt to shift the focus to another group of non-christian people is a declaration that is similar to “yes I admit that I am not a christian but those Jews/Muslims/Atheists aren’t christian either, so why are you picking on me for not being christian?!?!?” *facepalm*

It seems very clear, that for the most part, christians believe in Jesus because of christmas, easter, giving presents, miracles, bumper stickers, having in god we trust on money, teaching creationism in schools, saying a pledge to god everyday, crosses, churches, chaplains in schools, stained glass windows etc etc etc — all of these things prop up the beliefs of the christian but none of these things are anything to do with being like Jesus wanted his followers to be like; these things are nothing to do with his actual teachings because they *are* things – a thing is not supposed to help you have your beliefs – if you need a thing to prop up your beliefs then you are sharing your love of god between that thing and your god – and some people even love those things exclusively with no regard for what their god wanted from them at all

this was what i believe the first commandment was trying to prevent – it is not merely about not worshipping Satan or Ba’al or Thor or Krishna, the first commandment was also trying to stop people from making up their own version of Jesus and worshipping that perfect idea of the perfect Jesus that lets you get away with whatever the fuck you want – in other words – US christians *need* to hold onto *things* to make their faith more real, which is the very opposite of what faith is supposed to be about – because when you focus on the things that you merely think your religion is about, you can end up not following what your religion is actually supposed to be about in the first place at all

this explains why all of these things that aren’t really anything to do with christianity are so furiously defended by christians, they defend them because they are the *only* things that make their religion real to them because they are not following the teachings of their Jesus, so to compensate, they make up things to focus on.. this also explains why christians tend to worry about what everyone else believes in, because they think that if they can get everyone to use these things to prop up christianity like they do, then no christians at all will feel bad about not actually following the teachings of Jesus, because no-one else is …

it’s obvious isn’t it? Jesus said to love everyone, but that is clearly too hard for people, so they just focus on *things* …

“oh I believe in Jesus, look! I’ve got a Fish Bumper sticker and everything!!!” ….. bzzzz #Fail

Posted 11 January, 2012 by manabrau in Christianity, god, idolatry, jesus, Religion Sux Arse, usa

more outspoken atheists are required … (religiorant)   Leave a comment

being an outspoken atheist isn’t really even required in Australia, not really, at least, it hasn’t been for as long as I can remember.

And that’s probably because Australians often tell religious fruitcakes not to be dickheads to their faces, even the religious tell the religious fruitcakes to pull their heads in over here, in fact, the religious are often the ones who actually do something about the religious nutters over here.

in comparison to the USA, I can’t think of a single incident where the moderately religious people in the USA did something about their religiotarded fellow believers

like with those rapture billboards .. i can only think of a handful of christians saying that Camping had it wrong.

ahem!

where were the millions of US christians saying that predicting the rapture is not “appropriate”?

it’s very apparent in the USA that people are more worried about Miley Cyrus giving young kids bad ideas by wearing skimpy outfits than they are worried about the unnecessary and biblical fear-mongering towards children… ie. in my mind there is no difference to kids being led astray by popular culture and kids being led to fear that the world is going to end as was predicted by those stupid billboards that Camping had put up…

but the whole thing is against what is taught in the bible because not even Jesus himself knows when the end is supposed to happen, so Camping was pretending to be *god* in that regard so where is the christian outrage at this blasphemy spouted by this old fart?

He’s *pretending* to be god, there is NOTHING more idolatrous than that!

frankly, if I believed in the christian god, I would be afraid that he would smite the earth after seeing how apathetic we were towards this Camping-clown’s false message of doom.

and kids *do* worry about that end-of-the-world and other sorts of god bullshit and there’s a big difference to disciplining and guiding children into adulthood to be good people as compared to telling them, that no matter how good they are, god is going to destroy the world at any moment!!

no wonder the world is supposedly going to shit in an ocean of apathy; these christian scaremongers keep ramming down our throats this bullshit of theirs that says that no matter what we do, we’re fucked any way.. if anything, those christian billboards should be sending positive messages, like “be nice to each other!” or better still, that money should be directly spent on the needy, like that Jesus guy that these people allegedly follow, said to do..

and the USA does have a big influence on the rest of the world too, so it’s not like others around the world are not going to get stupid ideas from this rapture nonsense that goes on every now and then thanks to the Internet….

so not only do atheists need to “come out” in the USA, and good leaders will inspire that, but the USA needs the sensible religious people (and they should be in the majority) on board as well to tell their fellow believers, who go too far with their beliefs to cut out their fricking bullshit, and seeing how the USA has such a big influence, it is the duty of all people, not just the atheists, to stamp out the religious idiocy, in fact, if anything, it should be the direct responsibility of “real” religious people to put a stop to all the religious arse-hattery that is out there.

That’s right, christians deal with their fundamentalist fucktards; muslims should deal with their terrorist buddies etc etc and those religious types should leave everyone else alone, you know, until they get their religions of peace to be actually peaceful, they should not bother with anybody else.

we are not learning from history … (historant)   Leave a comment

HISTORANT

we are not learning from history …

i’ve heard it often said that “the victor writes history in their favour” or something like that …

yet it seems that we are too arrogant to think that the history we know is wrong

often history is written with the facts of events presented accurately – but people are too stupid to ask what happened because of these events…

“oh look Helen, look what the bad guys did back in the bad old days”.. that’s how history is presented, it’s presented as a shiny object, all the dull rusty sharp edges are smoothed over..

people need to ask *why* did these things happen in the first place …

have you ever seen two kids fighting and the big kid has stomped the little kid, and because the little kid gets a broken bloody nose, ie. the little kid was hurt the worst, so nobody stops to ask what the little kid did.. they just think the big kid was being a meanie, coz the big kid, has been known to be a meanie in the past…

now the big kid maintains that his attack was perfectly justified, but no-one wants to hear why any more, because the little kid has cried so much and was so hurt and so mutilated and so humiliated, that *everyone* instantly picks on the big kid, and ridicules him and makes jokes and mocks him but …

still …

nobody asked the big kid why he broke the little kid’s nose by giving him a good punch, and eventually the tale of the little kid being punched by the big kid becomes so large, that no gives a rats arse about why the big kid did what he did, it would ruin the story.

why ruin the truth, with those pesky other points of view

but eventually some people do ask, well kind of, they have to read the history books about the event, because it’s too late now, as the big kid has long since died, and these curious people ask the question…

“Why did the big kid hit the little kid?”

and it turns out that somebody did have a different take on the “history” of that event, as it is rumoured that the little kid had taken the big kid’s money, in fact, the little kid, had taken the big kid’s entire family’s fortune, they were broke.

But often when you ask why and what happened, the little kids start asking you why you are being pro-big kid?…. they even have laws put in place, to protect the little kids from the big kids.

I’m not saying that the big kid did the right thing, far from it, but nobody saw what the little kid did, so a useful perspective on the events is often reduced to rumours, so all we see, is the seemingly over the top display of big kid retaliation.

But in my experience, the measure of the retaliation is usually in some sort of proportion to the initial event that caused the apparently over the top reaction.

just say, all the little kids had been taking money from the big kids for decades, and the big kids have just stood back and let the little kids look after the money they took. But each blow has a wearing down effect on the big kids and eventually, the big kids were scrambling to eat, to clothe and house their families…

in fact the whole big kid country is now in economic down turn, because the little kids have all the money

then one day…

a little kid, tries to take the big kids money again, and the big kid says NO! THAT’S ENOUGH….

and then the little kids get upset, but they have so much money now, that they can screw over the big kids, by getting all the little kids all over the world to pick on the big kids, in fact they are so rich now, they can hire other big kids to pick on the initial big kids, on their behalf.

President Barack Obama launched an extraordinary attack on the Supreme Court on Saturday, saying a ruling on corporate donations to political campaigns this week “strikes at democracy itself.”

Obama’s broadside was triggered by a 5-4 ruling by the court’s justices on Thursday that removed long-standing campaign finance limits and allowed corporations to spend freely in campaigns for president and Congress. In the ruling, the court’s conservative majority said the limits had violated corporations’ constitutional right to free speech.—
Obama says court ruling a blow to democracy

I have a very bad feeling about this…

Olbermann: U.S. government for sale

and people in my country want to emulate the USA political system… long live the Queen I say….


Posted 23 January, 2010 by manabrau in history, idiots, M.S., rant, usa

Jesus is LORD of Iraq!! (video/humour)   Leave a comment


RELIGIORANT



this is hilarious!!

have a listen to this guy in the video, sounds like he was a soldier in Iraq and he’s talking about a battle in Iraq…. and .. uhmmm….

DUMBARSE!!!

Jesus is up in heaven hanging his head in shame.. how can anyone be proud of invading and conquering a country, let alone call it in the name of Jesus???… let alone invade that country ON A LIE – *against* the wishes of the U.N.

this guy has some sort of Crusader Complex… not a healthy attitude at all…

if you don’t think the Iraqi war was based on a lie, then *you* have some serious issues and u need to turn off your TV and start thinking for yourself.

My government, the Australian government, withdrew the majority of our troops from Iraq because of the fact that the Iraqi war was based on a lie. This was made abundantly clear by our current Prime Minister. It’s also very likely that withdrawing our troops from Iraq was a big part of the reason why he won the last election.

The USA government has obliterated any trust the rest of the world has in the USA. What other LIES have the USA government been feeding us?

and what do we have? We have fuckwits like this dumb arse christian who ARE PROUD of killing in the name of Jesus…

Posted 30 August, 2009 by manabrau in humour, iraq, jesus, rant, Religion Sux Arse, usa

Prescott Bush… and the Nazis…   Leave a comment

NAZIS
USA
WAR

mostly written 19/Feb/09, mostly…

Introduction

Prescott Bush… and the Nazis… , no it’s not a bad cover’s band.

Prescott Bush, father of George Bush Sr and grandfather to George Bush Jr. worked for a company that supplied materials to Nazi Germany. This would seem to be a fact. I’m yet to find anything denying this, so if you know otherwise, speak up.

There is *so* much material on this to read, but “steel” would seem to be a major part of the trade involved.

Get a coffee and Google this for your own research – don’t believe me

prescott bush treason steel

But regardless, it would also seem to be a fact that one of the largest banks in the USA, be it knowingly or not, was financing the company that Prescott Bush used to trade with the Nazis.

Make your own minds up as to what that means, make up your own conspiracy theories.

“And remember, where you have a concentration of power in a few hands, all too frequently men with the mentality of gangsters get control. History has proven that. All power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.”
–Lord Acton

Summary

Ex USA President G. W. Bush is guilty of violating international law by ordering the USA invasion Iraq is he not?? Isn’t that treason? perhaps, War crimes? Didn’t the reason for invading turn out to be a lie? Is that more treason, more war crimes? (yes the USA wasn’t the only country to invade)

Seems this treason thing runs in the family, as Prescott Bush, G. W. Bush’s grandfather, evidentially committed treason as well, by being a director of Union Banking Corp. which was supplying Nazi Germany with materials up until October 1942. Prescott Bush was a partner of Harriman & Co. A major lender to this company was Kuhn, Loeb & Co.

Kuhn, Loeb & Co. was established by Abraham Kuhn and Solomon Loeb in 1867. Under the leadership of senior partners Jacob Schiff, and later his son Mortimer, along with Otto Kahn and Felix Warburg, this firm became one of the most influential USA banking firms during the late 1800s and early 1900s. This company, via mergers and take overs through the last fifty years, now forms part of the company we know today as American Express.

Beating a dead Horse

“Why Prescott Bush, George Bush Sr’s father and Jr’s grandfather, was never tried for treason is one of the great unsolved mysteries of American history” [1]

In 1942, Prescott Bush was a director of a company named “Union Banking Corp.”..

E.H. Harriman was the company Prescott Bush (George Jr.’s grandfather), was working for when he funneled millions of dollars to Hitler. This connection has been documented by numerous writers including Anthony Sutton and John Loftus. [2]

The supposedly biggest lender for Harriman company was Kuhn, Loeb & Co. [3]

This company was run by Jacob H. Schiff up until 1920 [4]. Schiff is famous for the 1904/5 extension of a loan, via Kuhn-Loeb, of $200 million dollars to Japan (which consequently allowed Japan to win the Russo-Japanese war), which has been speculated was to avenge the Tsarist treatment of Jewish people.

This firm would also seem to be very influential.

When World War I finally did break out, he used his reputation and influence to urge President Woodrow Wilson and others, to put an end to the war as quickly as possible, even without an Allied victory. [4]

Whether the Kuhn, Loeb & Co. knowingly supplied backing for Harriman & Co with knowledge that their money was going to the establishment and furthering of the Nazi war machine is NOT apparent.

But as complete speculation, it would seem unlikely that Kuhn, Loeb & Co. were unaware that their money was going to Germany. As an example, Jacob Schiff, up until the end of Tsarist Russia in 1917, forbade his company (Kuhn, Loeb & Co) from trading with any Russian company because of how the Russian Tsars had treated the Jewish population in Russia.

Felix M. Warburg, Schiff’s son-in-law had this to say of the Tsarist persecution of the Jews of Eastern Europe …

“The successive blows of contending armies have all but broken the back of European Jewry, and have reduced to tragically unbelievable poverty, starvation and disease about 6,000,000 souls, or half the Jewish population of the earth.

The Jewish people throughout Eastern Europe, by sheer accident of geography, have suffered more from the war than any other element of the population.”
–Felix M. Warburg
[5]

So it would seem that the senior partners knew where the funds of their company were being directed. Jacob Schiff, removed this ban after the Communists took power in Russia away from the Tsars. I can only assume that the senior partners after Schiff died in 1920 were as involved in how the company’s money was invested.

Regardless, Prescott Bush committed treason via Union Banking Corp. with it’s trading relations to Nazi Germany, and he should have been tried as such.

Later Prescott Bush became a US senator, I wonder how many of his voters would still have voted for him had they known about his connections to Nazi Germany?

Make your own minds up.

I strongly urge everyone to make up their own minds, but know this, it was speculated that Barrack Obama had terrorist connections…

It was *speculated*…

So the very speculation of there being terrorist connections to Obama had ppl calling him all manner of bullshit but George W Bush and George Bush Sr *were* USA presidents, and yet their father/grandfather evidentially *WAS* involved in funding the Nazis and as far as I can tell, no-one has bat an eyelid over this. Prescott Bush would seem to be a Nazi collaborator… Doesn’t the Bush family have current connections to the Bin Laden family as well? *sigh*

and yet…

what was all the stink about Obama *possibly* having terrorist connections, when G. W. Bush *is* a direct descendant of someone who was supplying the Nazis? That was no accident, the USA had a Trading with the enemy act since 1917.

Union Banking was seized by the government in October 1942 under the Trading with the Enemy Act [6]

“On December 13, 1941, six days after the attack at Pearl Harbor, Roosevelt signed the ‘Trading With the Enemy Act’. This act banned business dealings with the enemies of the US. Prescott Bush ignored this and continued to do business with the Nazis… [7]

Apparently the US government was too busy fighting the war (WW2) to be able to find the time to be able to deal with individuals and companies that were supplying Nazi Germany. Didn’t have time after the war either hey?

No charges were brought against Union Banking’s American directors. The federal government was too busy trying to fight the war, said Donald Goldstein, a professor of public and international affairs at the University of Pittsburgh.

“We did not have the resources to do these things,” Goldstein said. [6]

Make up your own minds, and do your own research, but I’ve read no articles saying the whole Prescott Bush treason thing is bullshit, in fact, the more digging, the more dirt that is found…

These are the facts, I’m still working on a conspiracy theory that makes sense.

So what do *you* make of this? What’s your conspiracy theory?


[1] http://houston.craigslist.org/pol/1003130011.html

[2] http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50209&page=9

[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuhn,_Loeb_&_Co.

[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_H._Schiff

[5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_M._Warburg

[6] http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,100474,00.html

[7] http://archive.democrats.com/preview.cfm?term=Prescott%20Bush

more links

http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/timeline.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_System

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Act

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_on_Foreign_Relations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trading_with_the_Enemy_Act

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dalberg-Acton,_1st_Baron_Acton#Famous_sayings_of_Lord_Acton

“The issue which has swept down the centuries and which will have to be fought sooner or later is the people versus the banks.”
–Lord Acton


Posted 11 August, 2009 by manabrau in bush, germany, Religion Sux Arse, usa, war